Thanks for this. As one who is well into his eighth decade I’m always wondering “What the hell is going on?” And this interview provided a couple of puzzle pieces that fit.
Thanks for posting the conversation. I read your Substack to expand beyond my cultural tribe. I have also pondered the effect of the human population drop off.
Given the length of the interview I may have missed where you and Mr. Carney address the social determinants of the phenomenon beyond community at the Amish or kibbutz level. For a multitude of social benefits the results have only been realized at the level of the state: Transportation, national defense, public health, safe guarding the environment, basic science research, providing medical care for community members not in the work force, education, fire response., etc.
In the interview there was mention made to the lack of sidewalks, how we design our communities will influence the attractiveness of raising children.
The main issue I did not note in the interview was economic support for parents. Another drop on my morning’s news feed was from the Peterson Center on Healthcare and KFF: “Medical debt among new mothers.” For my great grandparents children were assets, now they fall to the liability side of the balance sheet. The same article notes that 75% of employers do not offer paid parental leave.
Both Team Capitalism and Team Socialism have racked up significant accomplishments in the past 150 years. As we take on this new phenomenon of decreasing human population both teams need to bring their strengths and mutual respect to the table.
I think the whole point of the article is that economic support of parents isn't going to be sufficient for the transformational change required to make child rearing more pleasant again. That being said, I titskky agree that we need more economic support of parents!
What I think both Brink and Tim were getting at though is that the entire culture and society needs to transform to truly make family life better. Better for kids (less direct supervision) and for parents (less direct time with kids, less helicoptering, less obsession with work, etc).
I loved what you said at the end about capitalism and socialism bringing a lot to the table. The sooner everyone realizes both have something to contribute to society the sooner we can get on a more productive (and fertile) path.
I'd really like to think that we can create a culture where people who want 2,4,6 or 8 children will be supported and accommodated while simultaneously not pathologizing or demonizing those who choose to have none.
I agree. I don't believe we can get "good" communities until there's a cultural change on an individual level so that many more people get past the "individualist" stage in their consciousness to Maslow's "self-transcendence" or Wilber's "integral" level where it's "both/and."
Thank you for this article. I’ve been ruminating for some time about the effects of lower birth rates and the seeming dissolution of family life in America. This really gets me to thinking! Thanks again.
Thank your for sharing this discussion, it was fantastic. Growing up liberal made it difficult for me to understand a lot of my religious friends and their big families but now that I have one of my own (a family, not a big one), it's starting to make more sense.
Also I just want to give my most extreme hell yes to co-living / communal living. I live in a big complex in LA and having other families with kids my children's age and living next to some very good friends who also have had kids has been absolutely transformative to child rearing. No one should have to do this alone. No one wonder it was easier to have more kids in previous generations, even when we all had less wealth.
"Are you going to have kids?...... my ideal is a sort of norm that you can opt out of..."
When I try to peer imaginatively down a societal road that I might wish we had taken, the nearest I can get is something a bit like The Waltons.....It was a place where boy meets girl and starts a family; a place where self-reliance and stoicism was your code even if you did not entirely live up to it. For all its sugar-coated Hollywood fakery it was, at the end of the day, my kind of place....
Thanks for this. As one who is well into his eighth decade I’m always wondering “What the hell is going on?” And this interview provided a couple of puzzle pieces that fit.
Thanks for posting the conversation. I read your Substack to expand beyond my cultural tribe. I have also pondered the effect of the human population drop off.
Given the length of the interview I may have missed where you and Mr. Carney address the social determinants of the phenomenon beyond community at the Amish or kibbutz level. For a multitude of social benefits the results have only been realized at the level of the state: Transportation, national defense, public health, safe guarding the environment, basic science research, providing medical care for community members not in the work force, education, fire response., etc.
In the interview there was mention made to the lack of sidewalks, how we design our communities will influence the attractiveness of raising children.
The main issue I did not note in the interview was economic support for parents. Another drop on my morning’s news feed was from the Peterson Center on Healthcare and KFF: “Medical debt among new mothers.” For my great grandparents children were assets, now they fall to the liability side of the balance sheet. The same article notes that 75% of employers do not offer paid parental leave.
Both Team Capitalism and Team Socialism have racked up significant accomplishments in the past 150 years. As we take on this new phenomenon of decreasing human population both teams need to bring their strengths and mutual respect to the table.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/medical-debt-among-new-mothers/
I think the whole point of the article is that economic support of parents isn't going to be sufficient for the transformational change required to make child rearing more pleasant again. That being said, I titskky agree that we need more economic support of parents!
What I think both Brink and Tim were getting at though is that the entire culture and society needs to transform to truly make family life better. Better for kids (less direct supervision) and for parents (less direct time with kids, less helicoptering, less obsession with work, etc).
I loved what you said at the end about capitalism and socialism bringing a lot to the table. The sooner everyone realizes both have something to contribute to society the sooner we can get on a more productive (and fertile) path.
Maybe I'm being naive but,
I'd really like to think that we can create a culture where people who want 2,4,6 or 8 children will be supported and accommodated while simultaneously not pathologizing or demonizing those who choose to have none.
I agree. I don't believe we can get "good" communities until there's a cultural change on an individual level so that many more people get past the "individualist" stage in their consciousness to Maslow's "self-transcendence" or Wilber's "integral" level where it's "both/and."
> Maybe I'm being naive
You are.
Thank you for this article. I’ve been ruminating for some time about the effects of lower birth rates and the seeming dissolution of family life in America. This really gets me to thinking! Thanks again.
What a gracious and rich conversation. Lots to say about the substance, but for now, rhetorically, well played!
Thank your for sharing this discussion, it was fantastic. Growing up liberal made it difficult for me to understand a lot of my religious friends and their big families but now that I have one of my own (a family, not a big one), it's starting to make more sense.
Also I just want to give my most extreme hell yes to co-living / communal living. I live in a big complex in LA and having other families with kids my children's age and living next to some very good friends who also have had kids has been absolutely transformative to child rearing. No one should have to do this alone. No one wonder it was easier to have more kids in previous generations, even when we all had less wealth.
"Are you going to have kids?...... my ideal is a sort of norm that you can opt out of..."
When I try to peer imaginatively down a societal road that I might wish we had taken, the nearest I can get is something a bit like The Waltons.....It was a place where boy meets girl and starts a family; a place where self-reliance and stoicism was your code even if you did not entirely live up to it. For all its sugar-coated Hollywood fakery it was, at the end of the day, my kind of place....
https://grahamcunningham.substack.com/p/take-me-to-your-experts